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6 points versus 12 point sockets

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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby crxgator » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:34 pm

Gr8_EE8 wrote:Here. I just changed the fundamental rules of geometry and altered the included angle of a 12 point socket. This is what any name brand tool does.
Image


Maybe I'm confused by what youre trying to say, but are you comparing a 12 point and a 6 point but using a triple square as saying the 12 point is better?

triple squares are a type of bolt mainly used on german cars, completely different than the standard 6/12 point.

If I misread you, I apologize.

However, I've always been taught to use a 6 point when possible as it is less likely to strip compared to a 12 point socket taking off a 6 point bolt.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby ohisofly » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:41 pm

Interesting points, I definitely see what Gr8_EE8 is saying. Quite frankly it makes sense, and I too don't need to justify my position but I know a thing or two about working on cars.

Another point that should be kept in mind is that the vast majority of times, a rounded off nut/bolt is caused by you not holding the ratchet at or close to a 90° when you're using it. It doesn't take being off much before you have essentially no contact patch between the socket and the nut/bolt, hence it slipping and rounding it off. I don't have a protractor but you get the idea.

Using an extension makes it even more difficult to hold the ratchet at that 90° angle, but with that being said a shorter extension doesn't give you as hard of a time as a longer extension will. That's just physics.

In all of my wrenching I have yet to round off a nut or bolt with a 12pt solely due to the fact that it's a 12pt. It has always been because I was either a.) holding the ratchet/extension/socket at an angle far off from the ideal 90°, or b.) I was trying to loosen the nut/bolt with a 'drive' that was too small.

For example, if a 10mm bolt is very tight, and you try to loosen it with a 1/4" drive ratchet, you don't have much leverage since the 1/4" ratchet has a handle that's maybe 4 inches or so long. It's easy for you to try to tighten/loosen the nut/bolt so hard that your hand just slips off of the ratchet (due to the short handle). This is going to cause whatever you're working on to round off.

If you instead take the time to use a 3/8" ratchet on that same bolt, you will find that the longer handle makes the entire process much easier. When you apply a large amount of force, the nut/bolt will actually loosen/tighten instead of simply rounding off. The added rigidity of it being a larger drive and the beefier extension/socket also contribute to the process being easier. It goes without saying but this principle also applies to using 3/8" drive vs 1/2" drive ratchets/extensions/sockets.

Yet another point I'll make about sockets is that the size of the socket is not very 'true' when comparing low quality tools (harbor freight) with average quality tools (craftsman, kobalt) or especially high quality tools (snap-on, etc. etc.). From my experience at least, low quality tools have always have a 'loose' fit. Best example I have is a 17mm wrench, as that's what's used for Honda oil pan drain bolts - assuming you don't have an oversized oil drain plug.

If you use the 12pt end of a 17mm harbor freight wrench, craftsman wrench, and snap-on wrench, it is extremely clear that the snap-on wrench has the most 'snug' fit. While the other wrenches will fit the bolt and work fine, they have a much more 'loose' fit (especially harbor freight). This loose fit is due to a number of things such as manufacturing tolerances, but point is that the loose fit results in less of a contact patch between the wrench (or socket), and the nut/bolt you're working with.

This smaller contact patch results in you applying force that may not necessarily be at or close to that 90° angle mentioned previously, and when you apply force that's far enough off of that angle, your wrench/socket slips - resulting in a rounded off nut/bolt.

As far as tools, I agree that snap-on is overkill for what most of us on here will be doing; the majority of my tools are craftsman and harbor freight. If you use the correct 'drive' (1/4", 3/8" & 1/2") for the correct application, you really have to try to break the tools. Obviously cheap, low quality tools like harbor freight will be the first to break but so far I've had decent luck with them. If you don't have room to use the next higher up 'drive', then the easiest solution is to get a ratchet with more teeth. Only downside is that these high tooth ratchets are more expensive than your typical ratchet, especially if you're getting a higher-end brand like snap-on.

This is simply what I've learned over the years.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby JeffWilliamsUSA » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:32 am

um , you don't have to believe me but ..
i designed a wrench , and the idea was stolen from me .. ( long story )
this is it .. :
http://www.metrinch.tv/

it combines climbing "camming" into the wrench. ;)
it hold the sides of the bolts. not the corners.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby jfrolang » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:52 pm

crxgator wrote:
Gr8_EE8 wrote:Here. I just changed the fundamental rules of geometry and altered the included angle of a 12 point socket. This is what any name brand tool does.
Image


Maybe I'm confused by what youre trying to say, but are you comparing a 12 point and a 6 point but using a triple square as saying the 12 point is better?

That's exactly what he's doing and I'll say again: Trolling or terribly confused.

Is it possible to create a high-quality 12-point socket that is unlikely to strip bolts? Sure. Is it also possible to create a cheap, loose 6-point socket? Absolutely. Does that make 12-points inherently better? [potty mouth] no it doesn't.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby daveb91 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:09 pm

Lol
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby kracksmith » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:31 pm

well google states 6 pt over 12 pt too except as you guys mentioned 12pt is good for tight areas.

https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q= ... cket%20set


i think tekton is what i'll be getting.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby Dave_Darling » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:20 pm

In a well-designed 6-point socket, force is applied along the flats.

In many 12-point sockets, the force is still on the corners, just in 2 smaller places.


...Can we all agree that open-end wrenches are The Divvil? ;) Most especially adjustable ones...

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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby JeffWilliamsUSA » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:59 pm

kracksmith wrote:well google states 6 pt over 12 pt too except as you guys mentioned 12pt is good for tight areas.

https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q= ... cket%20set


i think tekton is what i'll be getting.



90% of the time .. it kinda doesn't matter which one your using.
Because 90% of the time, the bolt isn't stuck or over torqued or torqued beyond the spec of either socket.

I have 2 sets of tools .. the cheap ones i use every day ..
and the expensive ones i use when i have a situation.
( actually i have 2 sets of good tools / Husky & Craftsman )

12 point sockets have one advantage. easier placement.
They are good for blind placement / limited angle / speed
The tire change sockets on NASCAR are certainly NOT 6 point ;)
they are actually 2 point , that's right 2 point , that's not a misprint

This is why you seldom see a crescent wrench with a 6 point closed end.
If it were 6 point , you woudn't be able to use it half the time because of the placement angle.

Dave_Darling wrote:In a well-designed 6-point socket, force is applied along the flats.

In many 12-point sockets, the force is still on the corners, just in 2 smaller places.

--DD


um you kinda just made an arguement for the 12 point .. haha
the side force will translate into an "explosion" force of the socket.
The socket will split on the 6 point before stripping the bolt.

The greater angle on the 12 point puts pressure in a more rotational force.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby Dave_Darling » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:33 pm

Dude, what are you smoking and where can I get some? EXPLODING SOCKETS???

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read all day--even dumber than political stuff on Facebook!

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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby JeffWilliamsUSA » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:48 am

Dave_Darling wrote:Dude, what are you smoking and where can I get some? EXPLODING SOCKETS???

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read all day--even dumber than political stuff on Facebook!

--DD

i didn't say that , read it again ..
I said ** "it puts and explosion "force" ***
Have you never ripped the side of a 6 point socket ?
How did that happen ?
the corners of the nut / bolt pressed "out" on the sides.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby kracksmith » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:54 am

here is a pic of how a socket side wall force damage looked on K2 lug nut that Jeff was referencing.

Image
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby kracksmith » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:52 am

it's interesting ARP came up with 12 points nuts now. so i would imagine the grip would be much better.

https://thmotorsports.com/arp/arp-faste ... 64418.aspx
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby jfrolang » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:02 pm

12 point fasteners are not a new concept. If you've ever changed a clutch you know this.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby crxgator » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:03 pm

kracksmith wrote:here is a pic of how a socket side wall force damage looked on K2 lug nut that Jeff was referencing.

Image


All this [baloney] was over some cheap, Chinese made thin-walled socket?!?! GTFO.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby Mista Bone » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:45 am

On a Honda you only need two 12 point sockets, both needed for clutch/flywheel change.

Beyond that you shouldn't own any.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby ScottMog » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:28 pm

*shows picture of a harbor freight socket*
EMAIL ME instead if possible. scottmog@gmail.com
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby Dave_Darling » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:52 pm

kracksmith wrote:it's interesting ARP came up with 12 points nuts now. so i would imagine the grip would be much better.


If you have 12-point fasteners, then the 12-point socket is going to work an awful lot better. Lots more contact area, yadda yadda yadda. Not to mention that the 6-point sockets won't even fit at all.

That doesn't mean that the 12-point sockets are superior on 6-point bolts. They're not.

--DD
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby kracksmith » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:01 pm

Yes i just thought these 12pt fastener were a new concept. With this said how come its not much being popular not more main stream.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby Myriad » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:43 am

I'm not sure there are any bolts on our cars that will break decent sockets. Even if you find one, it's not the 6/12 pt. side that breaks, it's the other side. Of the 2 non-impact Craftsman sockets I destroyed, both were on the square connection (one with a beaker-bar, the other ...... with an impact--DON'T JUDGE ME! :lol: )

I like the price of the Pittsburgh sockets, but not the tolerances. If you're looking for quality>price, then I like SK and Tekton. Grey Pneumatic is a good brand too. Gearwrench, husky, craftsman, kobalt are OK, but not real amazing. I'd rather have a socket I can replace under a lifetime warranty than strip every 3rd bolt I come across.
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Re: 6 points versus 12 point sockets

Postby crocrx » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Myriad wrote:I'm not sure there are any bolts on our cars that will break decent sockets. Even if you find one, it's not the 6/12 pt. side that breaks, it's the other side. Of the 2 non-impact Craftsman sockets I destroyed, both were on the square connection (one with a beaker-bar, the other ...... with an impact--DON'T JUDGE ME! :lol: )

I like the price of the Pittsburgh sockets, but not the tolerances. If you're looking for quality>price, then I like SK and Tekton. Grey Pneumatic is a good brand too. Gearwrench, husky, craftsman, kobalt are OK, but not real amazing. I'd rather have a socket I can replace under a lifetime warranty than strip every 3rd bolt I come across.


I use Tekton impact sockets professionally. No complaints going on 5 years!
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