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Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:19 am

Dr_Drache wrote:few things I need to point out.
STOCK fuel pressure.
use crome (Shudder) to tune the fuel, tuning by fuel pressure is a good way to get a bad tune.

and use range 7 plugs. that should work fine for you.


The only reason I'm putting in this fpr is to turn the fuel pressure down. I was advised by many that I could just tune it so the 1000cc injectors would work (I know lots of people do) but I apparently that is frowned upon. I was also told that with 880cc injectors I would be able to adjust the tune to compensate for them but that for these injectors it wouldn't be a good idea. So I'm almost certainly going to be running a lower base fuel pressure. I don't intend on trying to change the fuel pressure to make the tune more rich or lean if that's what you're talking about, I'll be using crome for that.

I'm well aware that crome is sketchy but the plan is that if tuning this goes well I'll be doing a few local cars here and there, in which case crome will almost definitely be software
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:48 am

ohisofly wrote:
The only reason I'm putting in this fpr is to turn the fuel pressure down. I was advised by many that I could just tune it so the 1000cc injectors would work (I know lots of people do) but I apparently that is frowned upon. I was also told that with 880cc injectors I would be able to adjust the tune to compensate for them but that for these injectors it wouldn't be a good idea. So I'm almost certainly going to be running a lower base fuel pressure. I don't intend on trying to change the fuel pressure to make the tune more rich or lean if that's what you're talking about, I'll be using crome for that.


no idea where you heard that. changing fuel pressure makes it extremely hard to determine what is going on. all the tuning software is based on injector pulses.

you could run 1000IDs on a stock 1.5L. it's not frowned upon as it's the standard way to tune (who frowns on doing things the proper way?). you size your injectors for the MAX power you'd ever make, then tune down the pulse. that's how every car is tuned, and the only reason you touch fuel pressure is when you have TOO SMALL of injectors.

and my problem with crome, is it has BIG issues with timing. and idle. everyone I know that tuned with it, won't.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby crxvtec91 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:27 am

NGK BKR7E (4644)
My build thread: http://www.crxcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16812

500hp and 450ft/lbs @30psi

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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:56 am

crxvtec91 wrote:NGK BKR7E (4644)


thanks, I forgot the code for NGK's.. I just said 7 :P
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:05 pm

Dr_Drache wrote:
ohisofly wrote:
The only reason I'm putting in this fpr is to turn the fuel pressure down. I was advised by many that I could just tune it so the 1000cc injectors would work (I know lots of people do) but I apparently that is frowned upon. I was also told that with 880cc injectors I would be able to adjust the tune to compensate for them but that for these injectors it wouldn't be a good idea. So I'm almost certainly going to be running a lower base fuel pressure. I don't intend on trying to change the fuel pressure to make the tune more rich or lean if that's what you're talking about, I'll be using crome for that.


no idea where you heard that. changing fuel pressure makes it extremely hard to determine what is going on. all the tuning software is based on injector pulses.

you could run 1000IDs on a stock 1.5L. it's not frowned upon as it's the standard way to tune (who frowns on doing things the proper way?). you size your injectors for the MAX power you'd ever make, then tune down the pulse. that's how every car is tuned, and the only reason you touch fuel pressure is when you have TOO SMALL of injectors.

and my problem with crome, is it has BIG issues with timing. and idle. everyone I know that tuned with it, won't.


I see what you're saying, but look at it this way: If you have ID1000's trying to run a d15 with stock fuel pressure then your fuel tables would have numbers extremely low with injector duty cycles very low. Now I have no idea if that's bad or not, but it would definitely prevent you from doing any sort of 'fine tuning' since any change would have a dramatic effect (assuming you were at stock fuel pressure). So if you think about it that's sort of the situation I would be in since my car will only make roughly 300hp and ID 1000's can make much more than that. Sure I could still adjust the tune with the stock fpr to make it run (as I said I know this is how many do it and I've been in cars with 1000cc injectors only making 300hp), but it wouldn't give me the precision during tuning that I would have with smaller injectors that would be more suitable for this application (like 450cc or something). So by turning down the fuel pressure I'm kind of getting the best of both worlds (since I won't have to buy bigger injectors when I build the block).

I plan on tuning this setup on crome but I agree 100% that it's not ideal; when I build the block I'll invest in something more reliable. For now crome is perfect for what I'm trying to do.

crxvtec91 wrote:NGK BKR7E (4644)


:-)b
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:14 pm

ohisofly wrote:
Dr_Drache wrote:
ohisofly wrote:
The only reason I'm putting in this fpr is to turn the fuel pressure down. I was advised by many that I could just tune it so the 1000cc injectors would work (I know lots of people do) but I apparently that is frowned upon. I was also told that with 880cc injectors I would be able to adjust the tune to compensate for them but that for these injectors it wouldn't be a good idea. So I'm almost certainly going to be running a lower base fuel pressure. I don't intend on trying to change the fuel pressure to make the tune more rich or lean if that's what you're talking about, I'll be using crome for that.


no idea where you heard that. changing fuel pressure makes it extremely hard to determine what is going on. all the tuning software is based on injector pulses.

you could run 1000IDs on a stock 1.5L. it's not frowned upon as it's the standard way to tune (who frowns on doing things the proper way?). you size your injectors for the MAX power you'd ever make, then tune down the pulse. that's how every car is tuned, and the only reason you touch fuel pressure is when you have TOO SMALL of injectors.

and my problem with crome, is it has BIG issues with timing. and idle. everyone I know that tuned with it, won't.


I see what you're saying, but look at it this way: If you have ID1000's trying to run a d15 with stock fuel pressure then your fuel tables would have numbers extremely low with injector duty cycles very low. Now I have no idea if that's bad or not, but it would definitely prevent you from doing any sort of 'fine tuning' since any change would have a dramatic effect (assuming you were at stock fuel pressure). So if you think about it that's sort of the situation I would be in since my car will only make roughly 300hp and ID 1000's can make much more than that. Sure I could still adjust the tune with the stock fpr to make it run (as I said I know this is how many do it and I've been in cars with 1000cc injectors only making 300hp), but it wouldn't give me the precision during tuning that I would have with smaller injectors that would be more suitable for this application (like 450cc or something). So by turning down the fuel pressure I'm kind of getting the best of both worlds (since I won't have to buy bigger injectors when I build the block).

I plan on tuning this setup on crome but I agree 100% that it's not ideal; when I build the block I'll invest in something more reliable. For now crome is perfect for what I'm trying to do.

crxvtec91 wrote:NGK BKR7E (4644)


:-)b

adjusting the tune is the proper way to do it, the adjustabilty options you have make this discussion a moot point.
you are attempting to fix a problem, that frankly doesn't exist.
it's nothing about how much power you are making, it's the displacement of the engine.

think of it this way... ID1000s work PERFECT on a boosted car out of boost. that's the same as running stock. (actually, once tuned, less fuel than stock) you are not in any way getting close to the limits of the injectors or the ECU. not even close. you will have the ability to change the injector pulse for fine tuning. you could run a stock HF with ID2000s if you wanted to, and get a perfect idle and MPG.

the ONLY reason you'd need adjust out of stock Fuel pressure, is if you need MORE fuel than your injectors can provide, NOT LESS.

you are running headfirst into a tuning nightmare. do it how you want, but you are making it harder than it needs to be.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby crxvtec91 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:33 pm

You can have ID2000 on a bone stock motor, as long as the tune is right you wont have a issue!
My build thread: http://www.crxcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16812

500hp and 450ft/lbs @30psi

LOOK, go to UserControlPanel->UsercontrolPanel->Profile->UPDATE YOUR DAMN LOCATIONS K?
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:34 pm

crxvtec91 wrote:You can have ID2000 on a bone stock motor, as long as the tune is right you wont have a issue!

^^^
this guy and I disagree on a few things, but I'd have to agree with him here (because he's right)
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:14 pm

Dr_Drache wrote:
ohisofly wrote:
Dr_Drache wrote:
ohisofly wrote:
The only reason I'm putting in this fpr is to turn the fuel pressure down. I was advised by many that I could just tune it so the 1000cc injectors would work (I know lots of people do) but I apparently that is frowned upon. I was also told that with 880cc injectors I would be able to adjust the tune to compensate for them but that for these injectors it wouldn't be a good idea. So I'm almost certainly going to be running a lower base fuel pressure. I don't intend on trying to change the fuel pressure to make the tune more rich or lean if that's what you're talking about, I'll be using crome for that.


no idea where you heard that. changing fuel pressure makes it extremely hard to determine what is going on. all the tuning software is based on injector pulses.

you could run 1000IDs on a stock 1.5L. it's not frowned upon as it's the standard way to tune (who frowns on doing things the proper way?). you size your injectors for the MAX power you'd ever make, then tune down the pulse. that's how every car is tuned, and the only reason you touch fuel pressure is when you have TOO SMALL of injectors.

and my problem with crome, is it has BIG issues with timing. and idle. everyone I know that tuned with it, won't.


I see what you're saying, but look at it this way: If you have ID1000's trying to run a d15 with stock fuel pressure then your fuel tables would have numbers extremely low with injector duty cycles very low. Now I have no idea if that's bad or not, but it would definitely prevent you from doing any sort of 'fine tuning' since any change would have a dramatic effect (assuming you were at stock fuel pressure). So if you think about it that's sort of the situation I would be in since my car will only make roughly 300hp and ID 1000's can make much more than that. Sure I could still adjust the tune with the stock fpr to make it run (as I said I know this is how many do it and I've been in cars with 1000cc injectors only making 300hp), but it wouldn't give me the precision during tuning that I would have with smaller injectors that would be more suitable for this application (like 450cc or something). So by turning down the fuel pressure I'm kind of getting the best of both worlds (since I won't have to buy bigger injectors when I build the block).

I plan on tuning this setup on crome but I agree 100% that it's not ideal; when I build the block I'll invest in something more reliable. For now crome is perfect for what I'm trying to do.

crxvtec91 wrote:NGK BKR7E (4644)


:-)b

adjusting the tune is the proper way to do it, the adjustabilty options you have make this discussion a moot point.
you are attempting to fix a problem, that frankly doesn't exist.
it's nothing about how much power you are making, it's the displacement of the engine.

think of it this way... ID1000s work PERFECT on a boosted car out of boost. that's the same as running stock. (actually, once tuned, less fuel than stock) you are not in any way getting close to the limits of the injectors or the ECU. not even close. you will have the ability to change the injector pulse for fine tuning. you could run a stock HF with ID2000s if you wanted to, and get a perfect idle and MPG.

the ONLY reason you'd need adjust out of stock Fuel pressure, is if you need MORE fuel than your injectors can provide, NOT LESS.

you are running headfirst into a tuning nightmare. do it how you want, but you are making it harder than it needs to be.


After thinking about it yea I have to admit my argument about being more precise while tuning would be obsolete, forgive me for my ignorance but that is how a friend explained it to me previously. Believe me if I didn't intend on getting a built block in the next year or two I wouldn't even consider installing this fpr.

I have one question; If I ended up not installing the fpr, wouldn't it be a possibility that I run into issues with the oem fuel damper? From what I see this can cause problems, but removing it also defeats the purpose.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:25 pm

ohisofly wrote:
I have one question; If I ended up not installing the fpr, wouldn't it be a possibility that I run into issues with the oem fuel damper? From what I see this can cause problems, but removing it also defeats the purpose.


"stock" fuel pump and FRP are good up to a very large HP # (IIRC guessing high 300s)
other than style points, the only reasons you'd need a adjustable FPR, is to ensure the pressure stays more constant, or you have a aftermarket pump that can flow a considerable more amount, and the return flow of the stock regulator can't handle the flow without pressure spikes. or you desire/require a different Rising rate for your fueling.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:34 pm

Dr_Drache wrote:
ohisofly wrote:
I have one question; If I ended up not installing the fpr, wouldn't it be a possibility that I run into issues with the oem fuel damper? From what I see this can cause problems, but removing it also defeats the purpose.


"stock" fuel pump and FRP are good up to a very large HP # (IIRC guessing high 300s)
other than style points, the only reasons you'd need a adjustable FPR, is to ensure the pressure stays more constant, or you have a aftermarket pump that can flow a considerable more amount, and the return flow of the stock regulator can't handle the flow without pressure spikes. or you desire/require a different Rising rate for your fueling.

Gotcha, that makes more sense now. I did install an xenocron 255 fuel pump and it's already rewired with a lower gauge wire, so I guess using the fpr is going to be ideal in this case. What do you mean by rising rate for fueling?
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:42 pm

all of the FI regulators are rising rate..
this quote should sum it up :
"Most injectors are designed to operate most efficiently at 3 BAR (43.5 PSI). The factory base fuel pressure is 43.5 PSI. A fuel system with a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator will increase the fuel pressure by 1 PSI for every 1 PSI of manifold (boost) pressure to maintain a equalized pressure in the injector. 10 psi of manifold pressure will increase the fuel rail pressure to 53.5 PSI, which will maintain 43.5 PSI in the injector when open (53.5 - 10 = 43.5 PSI). The more manifold pressure, the harder your fuel pump needs to work to maintain 3 BAR of pressure in the injector when open."

the above #s are from a S2000, but covers the points.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:53 pm

Dr_Drache wrote:all of the FI regulators are rising rate..
this quote should sum it up :
"Most injectors are designed to operate most efficiently at 3 BAR (43.5 PSI). The factory base fuel pressure is 43.5 PSI. A fuel system with a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator will increase the fuel pressure by 1 PSI for every 1 PSI of manifold (boost) pressure to maintain a equalized pressure in the injector. 10 psi of manifold pressure will increase the fuel rail pressure to 53.5 PSI, which will maintain 43.5 PSI in the injector when open (53.5 - 10 = 43.5 PSI). The more manifold pressure, the harder your fuel pump needs to work to maintain 3 BAR of pressure in the injector when open."

the above #s are from a S2000, but covers the points.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that but it makes perfect sense. Would you be for or against mounting the fpr to the fuel rail? I'd imagine there would be some vibration issues but I've seen it done plenty of times
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:55 pm

that's an acceptable mounting location, so is the firewall.

only thing that dictates that is your FPR and mounting flanges.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:07 pm

Couldn't I get/make a fitting that screws into where the oem fuel damper is and then has AN threads on the other side?

Here's the plate I made for mounting it on the firewall If I go that route

Image
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:22 pm

only certain brands come with the right connection, such as the AEM :
Image

but people usually buy this :

http://www.goldeneaglemfg.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=77_89&products_id=231

to achieve this :
Image
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:31 pm

Interesting, that's a really good idea.

I was thinking I could do something like this

Image
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:24 am

The manifold is done & was put on a belt sander to smooth everything out that got warped from welding. The collector looks horrible so hopefully I don't have any boost creep issues

Image

Image

Made these

Image

Bracket that came with fpr didn't fit so made this

Image

Worked on this thing a good bit this weekend, it has about 60 miles on it right now. Once it's broken in he's going for 800 something around 44 psi iirc. It's a 6766 with a half filled block, blah blah you get the point

Image

Image

Image

This weekend I'm hopefully going to try starting the crx, I ordered a new steering rack and some other stuff I need to finally get it on the road. If everything goes as planned then in a month or so I'll be ready to start street tuning
1991 Crx Si - My build thread

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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby EF8Zackrj » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:16 pm

THAT TURBO THOUGH...... :O
My vtec goes bwaaahhh
88 CRX DX SOLD
89 Civic Dx: Daily for now
88 CRX Si B16a Xsi Tran Mugen Chipped: Stolen and Stripped
http://crxcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=64927MY BUILD
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:48 pm

Crx still isn't running

The sandwich plate doesn't fit very well, I had to angle it between these sensors because with the oil line pointed straight up it hit the coolant pipe, causing it to leak.

Image

I also installed a T fitting right there which is for my oil pressure gauge, I don't have any pictures but will get some next weekend.

For the feed line should I try running no oil restrictor and see how it goes? I have an oil restrictor laying around (.5mm iirc) but the threads appear to be the AN style while my oil feed line has a pipe thread "flare" style. I found a fitting at lowes that will fit right in between the turbo and the feed line so I figure it might be worth a shot, but I'm seeing a lot of mixed opinions on oil restrictors for journal bearing turbos.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:11 pm

do you know the exact specs of your turbo?
that determines if you need a restrictor. that looks like a -4AN sized oil feed. might not need a restrictor, but the only way to tell is by the turbo.

I know my Holset doesn't really need one with a -3 AN, but will need one with a -4AN on a b-series.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:32 pm

Dr_Drache wrote:do you know the exact specs of your turbo?
that determines if you need a restrictor. that looks like a -4AN sized oil feed. might not need a restrictor, but the only way to tell is by the turbo.

I know my Holset doesn't really need one with a -3 AN, but will need one with a -4AN on a b-series.


Here's what garrett told me about the turbo when I emailed them asking for specs

Turbocharger is Garrett model TA34
Compressor Stage
A/R 0.60
Trim 60
Wheel Dia 75.0mm
Wheel Type BCCW4

Turbine Stage
A/R 0.63
Trim 76
Wheel Dia 65.0mm
Wheel Type T3HF

The compressor map is good for about 530hp.
Turbocharger was produced in December of 2003 at our Mexicali Mexico plant.

Here's the oil line I have

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380387771694?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
1991 Crx Si - My build thread

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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:43 pm

that's a -4 AN line with a built in restrictor.

that turbo is used alot on rotarys and VW.

I think just run that line you have, and you should be good.
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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby ohisofly » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:37 pm

When you say built in restrictor are you referring to this?

http://himni-racing.com/images/oil%20fe ... 20hole.jpg

Apparently this came with one of those, but it seems like I lost it. I did buy one that stated it was .5mm because the godspeed one didn't have a spec, but this additional one I bought isn't going to work with this oil line (AN threads vs. pipe threads). My bad for the lack of pictures.

From what I understand this turbo is stock on a duramax truck, can you confirm?
1991 Crx Si - My build thread

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Re: Ohisofly's 91 si project - her name is Kimmy

Postby Dr_Drache » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:05 am

since I have access to GM catalogs, give me a bit, I'll have a mechanic look it up.

EDIT : that was fast... lol, it's a OE for Cummins and John Deere. (makes sense, john deere uses cummins)

so the TA34 and TA38 are "dodge" turbos.
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