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The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

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The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby g0CRXg0 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:15 am

Man, it is not often I feel the need to bitch or complain (is it okay that I say 'bitch' in my post? if not just edit it out for me inthewoods) but MAN, I can't keep my mouth shut.

I don't know if maybe this site was different when I joined 5 years ago, but you've got to be kidding me.

inthewoods is like Hitler himself, well atleast when he feels like it. In one post he bitches at posters for asking questions about a car thats for sale, yet 2 posts down there's a post with no pics, no price, no nothing. Did he say anything there? nope....

The "Restoration" forum has people trying to install RSX seats in a CRX?! That's not restoration, it's bastardization. I thought we stopped molesting CRXs long ago?

Another kid is postin "Aw da ZC? Aw yea dats da engn I had in my 240sx"........ are you serious?

This is what your site has to offer? Kids who are ruining CRXs (and RSX seats for that matter) Kids who claim to have a ZC in their 240SX (which is just absolutely ridiculous) and has the grammar of 50 Cent, and then we have Mr.Nazi himself inthewoods to harass anyone for speaking their mind? Or being competitive?

When looking at any of the for sale threads, I cant tell whats new, whats old, whats still for sale, whats not, because there's no "useless" replies.
Are you serious? this is a CRX forum, people barely post things anyway. If one seller is more motivated to make the sale, or in my case, if a buyer is more motivated to find his parts then the rest, why should I have to be hindered by your sites Nazi rules?

Im sure you guys are thinking "Hey pal, this is our site and if you don't like it, get out" and I gladly will. This site serves VERY little purpose to me.
But as a veteran of the CRX Scene and community, and having been a part of several CRX/Honda sites over the past decade, I can honestly say without any exaggeration, this is BY FAR THE WORST CRX FORUM I HAVE EVER BEEN ON.
It's just an all around crappy experience, and as soon as you think it might yield something useful, Nazi Mods come to ruin it.

Dub, you know me and that I'm a good guy, not over opinionated, not an [butt-head]. Whatever your role in the site, I suggest you tell these jerks to let up on the reins a bit.

God, if only CRX-central.com was still up...... I guess I'll take my chances with HT, better than this place...

/endrant
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby g0CRXg0 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:19 am

actually, one more thing-

the whole reason I make this post, is because honestly and obviously HT is not the best, and most of the other CRX sites are crappy too..... I would think you guys would want to make the community happy, not send us elsewhere....
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby nihkon » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:57 pm

g0CRXg0 wrote:Man, it is not often I feel the need to bitch or complain (is it okay that I say 'bitch' in my post? if not just edit it out for me inthewoods) but MAN, I can't keep my mouth shut.

We don't edit swear words unless someone intentionally tries to bi-pass the swear filter. :wink:

g0CRXg0 wrote:I don't know if maybe this site was different when I joined 5 years ago, but you've got to be kidding me.

The "Restoration" forum has people trying to install RSX seats in a CRX?! That's not restoration, it's bastardization. I thought we stopped molesting CRXs long ago?

Another kid is postin "Aw da ZC? Aw yea dats da engn I had in my 240sx"........ are you serious?

This is what your site has to offer? Kids who are ruining CRXs (and RSX seats for that matter) Kids who claim to have a ZC in their 240SX (which is just absolutely ridiculous) and has the grammar of 50 Cent

I think it's less about the CRX community as a whole changing over the past ___ years, and more about your opinions have changed. The CRX is and always will be one of the cheapest Honda's you can buy. Naturally you're going to end up with people (or "kids" as you call them) driving them who can barely afford a car; people who try to come up with different alternatives to modifying their car; etc. You probably did similar things when you started out. Over the years your views towards these things change, and you're getting mad at the CRX Community for that?

g0CRXg0 wrote:inthewoods is like Hitler himself, well atleast when he feels like it. In one post he bitches at posters for asking questions about a car thats for sale, yet 2 posts down there's a post with no pics, no price, no nothing. Did he say anything there? nope....

He wasn't "bitching." He was simply trying to enforce the rules that are here... rules that have been established for most of the 5 years you have been here.
As for your 2nd point...the thread you are talking about where he made a comment...that post he made was well over a week ago. Saying that he didn't make a post in the thread that is now 2 threads down is completely irrelevant. Plus, the thread that you are upset that he didn't post in....I had already posted in that thread to let the member know about the price/location. Of course he is not going to post in there, again. :?

g0CRXg0 wrote:When looking at any of the for sale threads, I cant tell whats new, whats old, whats still for sale, whats not, because there's no "useless" replies.
Are you serious? this is a CRX forum, people barely post things anyway. If one seller is more motivated to make the sale, or in my case, if a buyer is more motivated to find his parts then the rest, why should I have to be hindered by your sites Nazi rules?

Our Classifieds rule are in place as an effort to try to make the" For Sale/Want To Buy" experience a better one. When trying to sell or buy something, who wants to sift through a bunch of threads full of "nice car, good luck with sale" posts? Who wants their thread buried at the bottom of the page just because a "motivated seller" has the time to bump their thread 10x a day? If the rules were followed as intended, the theory is that all the threads in those subforums would be up to date and only brought to the top when parts are added/sold or when pertinent questions are asked/answered.

In the end...they are really simple rules to follow.
If you're not truly interested in an item someone is selling, don't post in the thread.
If it hasn't been 7 days since the last post in your thread, don't "bump" it.

g0CRXg0 wrote:Im sure you guys are thinking "Hey pal, this is our site and if you don't like it, get out" and I gladly will. This site serves VERY little purpose to me. Dub, you know me and that I'm a good guy, not over opinionated, not an [butt-head]. Whatever your role in the site, I suggest you tell these jerks to let up on the reins a bit.

I don't feel that way at all. For sure it's disappointing when a member is upset at how things are getting handled, but I would hope that you can understand why things are the way they are, and stick around a bit...rather than stomp your feet and run away. If you truly are the good guy you say you are, then we'd all like to keep you here. :-)b

g0CRXg0 wrote: I guess I'll take my chances with HT, better than this place...

That part I really don't get. HT has ALL the things you've complained about here and plenty more!
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby daveb91 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:06 pm

This site can be frustrating....it just matters what mods are on and at what time. If you google crx questions I can usually find the answer at H-T before a result from crxcommunity shows up......but there is more bs because there is more activity there....take good with the bad.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Robb » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:06 pm

The search feature on this forum sucks too.
It doesnt let you search some words because it's too common... :rolleyes1:
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby daveb91 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:30 am

Robb wrote:The search feature on this forum sucks too.
It doesnt let you search some words because it's too common... :rolleyes1:


Dont use the phpbb search use the google powered one....I suggested once about removing the phpbb search and just having the google powered one so people would not get frustrated and stop using search but that landed on deaf ears.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Baker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:02 am

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's the worst place....but don't expect any other Honda forum to be perfect or better.
HT has lots of archived info, but covering all Honda models and being as big as it is, makes it even tougher to find anything.

g0CRXg0 wrote:The "Restoration" forum has people trying to install RSX seats in a CRX?! That's not restoration, it's bastardization. I thought we stopped molesting CRXs long ago?
Another kid is postin "Aw da ZC? Aw yea dats da engn I had in my 240sx"........ are you serious?
This is what your site has to offer? Kids who are ruining CRXs (and RSX seats for that matter) Kids who claim to have a ZC in their 240SX (which is just absolutely ridiculous) and has the grammar of 50 Cent


This was mentioned to me and after I thought about it, it's one of the core problems; the brand and model.
I think this is the problem with our beloved Hondas', "the lower purchase prices are allowing the lowest common denominator to get into them."
Which may just be the reality. I figured the sheer age of the car being 20 yrs old (for the newest model) would have filtered many of the younger fast and furious crowd out.

g0CRXg0 wrote:inthewoods is like Hitler himself....
Mr.Nazi himself inthewoods to harass anyone for speaking their mind? Or being competitive?


I wouldn't go that far, out of all of them, I've found he is one of the level headed ones, as opposed to some who refuse to engage in adult conversation about how things are run because ONLY their opinions seem matter. Some refuse to discuss issues, get mad and say things such as..."I'm done explaining [crud] to you. Stop being an ass or stop coming around". Good example to set, they claim to be "bigger" people with level heads, but when it comes down to it, they're no different.

You're not the only member who has serious gripes, I know there are a few others who do not come around anymore or as often because of certain things that have happened, the ppl and how it has been handled.
I've been vocal on issues, but here is some food for thought from another member on here that has contacted me.
I'm not going to put his name out there unless he wants to "out" himself, but here are a few key quotes from him:

"I don't get what the mod teams big deal is about this, _____ is usually pretty cool but the rest seriously need to pull the corncobs out of their asses and leave their circle jerk. A few months ago, I got privately reprimanded by _____ for giving a guy a positive comment in the classifieds, and _________ seems to think hes on another level than everybody else, since he has the most money into his car, and I kind of get the vibe that he has to belittle anyone who doesn't agree with him 100%, I hope he isn't getting the onset symptoms of Steve Jones disease.


"I too have noted that ________ is quite the "bleeding heart" and despite his tone towards "no political statements" his decree seems rather inconsistent with his actions, unless you agree with him politically. I will give him credit on posting some very useful info, but hes so damn smug I have to wonder when his head is going to disappear completely up his ass."


When I was a mod, I noted that we as a team should have a united front and back one another up, instead of leapfrogging one another on issues and making changes. It flat out looks disorganized and makes them look bad.

One situation which reminded me of this, was brought to my attention by another member:
"Take a look at some of the HID threads that Ive stood my ground on, _____ locked the thread, stated his smug position, yet "another mod" PMed me later stating he saw no problem with my viewpoint."
:?

daveb91 wrote:I suggested once about removing the phpbb search and just having the google powered one so people would not get frustrated and stop using search but that landed on deaf ears.


..and you're surprised?


g0CRXg0 wrote:I would think you guys would want to make the community happy, not send us elsewhere....


See my sig...

I agree with you on some points, BUT I like the classified rules, it keeps things cleaned up.
On HT or other forums, I hate seeing all the crappy BS posts that have 0 to do with the items.

I do think we sympathize and spoon feed too much.
If the new members now can't seem to grasp the basics or figure out where and how to look, and the majority of users on here seem to sympathize with their stupidity, I don't see how that can benefit these new members to begin with.
What have they learned and will they truly stick around if they get their quickie answer to everything?

When I first signed up here 5 yrs ago, this place wasn't very old, still getting established and looked to be headed in a good direction as a reliable source for info and for enthusiasts. DIY's and info were getting written up, organized and stickied for the FAQ's so ppl could find the info they needed. But even after the sites 6 yr existence and almost 20 yrs to perfect internet search engines, ppl still can't find the info.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Its me DUB » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:10 pm

g0CRXg0 wrote:But as a veteran of the CRX Scene and community, and having been a part of several CRX/Honda sites over the past decade, I can honestly say without any exaggeration, this is BY FAR THE WORST CRX FORUM I HAVE EVER BEEN ON.
It's just an all around crappy experience, and as soon as you think it might yield something useful, Nazi Mods come to ruin it.

Dub, you know me and that I'm a good guy, not over opinionated, not an [butt-head]. Whatever your role in the site, I suggest you tell these jerks to let up on the reins a bit.

God, if only CRX-central.com was still up...... I guess I'll take my chances with HT, better than this place...

/endrant

Man, haven't heard from you in a while. Glad to see you're still kickin it...sucks to catch up on these terms though. :lol: Normally you are pretty level-headed and a good dude, but honestly your rant threw me off big time, and I'm sorry that you think this way about the place. Just so you know, inthewoods, is a good guy and he was asked to be a moderator because of his time spent on the forum and that we saw him as a good resource. If you are mad at him for enforcing the forum rules, please don't be. That's just part of what we have to do.

I'd say all of the mods are here because they like this place and want it to remain a good resource for old and new CRXers alike. Just a reminder that none of us are paid to be here. Our main responsibility as mods is to reinforce the rules to help keep the place in somewhat order. If that means moving something, or removing an "illegal bump", that's what we're going to do. We're not perfect.

If you truly have ideas on how to make this place better, voice them in another post. Let the community vote on it. If it's just a rant about why you're mad because a mod enforced a community rule, I don't see how it's helping this place be any better, honestly. Although we wish the place could appeal to everyone, we know you can't always make everyone happy. I know there's been some suggestions like what dave mentioned about the search feature being remove, which is a good idea...I didn't see it until now, and that would be something good to get on crxfisher or ollie's desk as the mods don't have access to change site design.

With posts like this, it is making this gig a bit of a bore and it's frustrating that the time spent seems to be in vain. I'm here because I like CRXs and this is a good place to connect with like-minded people, and also a decent place for good information. I want to help out where I can, but if everyone thinks this place is such a [crud] hole, why don't they offer up some solid advice for a change...and not in rant format please.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby THATREDCRX » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:16 pm

The worst resource would be in your closet.

Why dont you do something to change it if thats how you feel?

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CRX'S?????????? WELL THEN LETS TALK ABOUT CRX'S........
:rofl:
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby downest » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:48 am

I must say I am not too surprised to hear more griping from another older member. I think a lot of us who have been around for a while are starting to get a little fed up with the newer wave of CRX/Honda owners. I see it a lot at work, the newer generation of Honda kids are a lot different than we all were five to ten years ago (or longer, for some). You can't do anything about it, change happens, and you have to move with it. You don't have to spoon feed the new guys answers, you don't have to like hellaflushyo wheels, you don't even have to talk to them. The scene is changing, still, and as the cars get older I personally feel that it will change for the better. These cars are getting harder for inexperienced people to own, and they are starting to cost more as well.


I agree, this place doesn't offer me too much any more either. I own three CRXs right now and I really don't need any help with them, I've got a stockpile of parts too, so I rarely buy anything. Most of the time I get on here these days I'm just moving posts around and taking care of moderators' clerical duties, not very exciting stuff. It doesn't really bother me though, because I don't expect anything from the community as a whole. This isn't a website designed to entertain, it's a tool to help people learn and share a common experience, but it owes each member nothing. The moderators generally do a thankless job for no compensation, we tend to get the most negative attention on here too. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to get along with all the moderators, that's how it is. If there is a specific person abusing their power or offending a large part of the community, they can, will, and have been removed in the past, but overall we just try to get the best fit group of people who are willing to put the time in and keep this place cleaned up.


It's the internet... everyone needs to take a step back and breathe deep, remember there is a whole real world out there which is much, much more interesting.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby downest » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:50 am

Oh also I tried to register for that other CRX forum, I think maybe I got lost in some weight loss/shopping/Chevy site? Looks promising.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby inthewoods » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:42 am

All this over mudflaps? :rolleyes1:

Here is the post I edited..

viewtopic.php?p=560074#p560074
g0CRXg0 wrote:I'll give you $150 for the Front Mudflaps, and if you must sell it as a set, I'll give you $165 for the set.

And if you want to sell the JDM Front End for a decent price, let me know, I'm in Columbus and can pick this stuff up cash tomorrow. 614-537-2665 text me if you're interested


Here are the post I removed because people bitching at g0CRXg0...

MaStEr IrOc wrote:Dude dont be an ass. Don't lowball the [crud] out of someone. You know its worth way more than you are offering. And scotts offer is legit. So don't be a dick on this forum or people won't work woth or be willing to help you out


ScottMog wrote:
g0CRXg0 wrote:I'll give you $150 for the Front Mudflaps, and if you must sell it as a set, I'll give you $165 for the set. I know your friend made a fake offer, but this is a real one.

And if you want to sell the JDM Front End for a decent price, let me know, I'm in Columbus and can pick this stuff up cash tomorrow. 614-537-2665 text me if you're interested


lmfao children, btw i upped my offer to 300 shipped via pm. lmk when u wanna get out of your pampers and make a real offer to this guys rare as hell mudflaps.




And the PM's over the moderation...

inthewoods wrote:I edited your post because the comment was unnecessary. If you want to make an offer then do that, but don't accuse people of fake offers.

Subject: Fs... Everything :(

g0CRXg0 wrote:I'll give you $150 for the Front Mudflaps, and if you must sell it as a set, I'll give you $165 for the set.

And if you want to sell the JDM Front End for a decent price, let me know, I'm in Columbus and can pick this stuff up cash tomorrow. 614-537-2665 text me if you're interested


g0CRXg0 wrote:The guy openly stated he was making an offer strictly to try and establish a base price for his friend. Im not accusing anything, he said it not me.


inthewoods wrote:What this post?
ScottMog wrote:Ill throw u out an offer for the mudflaps. 250 + shipping. To stop any super lowballs from happening.


I'm pretty sure ScottMog is not his buddy and he truly want's to buy the flaps... just not at $400

Your offer was actually unnecessary since you didn't want to go over the $250 (now $300) ScottMog offered.


So that's the real story... If the community thinks I'm being hard-ass then I'll step down as a mod. :-)b
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Robb » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:49 am

downest wrote:Oh also I tried to register for that other CRX forum, I think maybe I got lost in some weight loss/shopping/Chevy site? Looks promising.

what are you talking about ?
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby daveb91 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:52 am

Baker wrote:

When I was a mod, I noted that we as a team should have a united front and back one another up, instead of leapfrogging one another on issues and making changes.


I hope to never see that..why would you back up a dumb choice just because the other guy is a mod....?

And a Steve Jones quote that wasn't mine awesome.......!
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby daveb91 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:21 am

inthewoods wrote:So that's the real story... If the community thinks I'm being hard-ass then I'll step down as a mod. :-)b


Really??????

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Baker » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:03 am

daveb91 wrote:
Baker wrote:When I was a mod, I noted that we as a team should have a united front and back one another up, instead of leapfrogging one another on issues and making changes.


I hope to never see that..why would you back up a dumb choice just because the other guy is a mod....?


I hope not either, but I didn't think I needed to specify.
This wasn't regarding blatantly bad choices or decisions.

downest wrote: I think a lot of us who have been around for a while are starting to get a little fed up with the newer wave of CRX/Honda owners. I see it a lot at work, the newer generation of Honda kids are a lot different than we all were five to ten years ago (or longer, for some).


In a nutshell, that generally covers it for me.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby AudioQuest » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:32 pm

downest wrote:Oh also I tried to register for that other CRX forum, I think maybe I got lost in some weight loss/shopping/Chevy site? Looks promising.


If you mean the ad banners, yes at this point in time, we can't afford to pay for ad banner removal for regular members. At some point we hope to have enough members who are active in the forum and would be willing to donate towards having the ads removed permanently.

In the meantime, we want to be a niche site for owners who prefer their CRX as stock as possible.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby inthewoods » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:59 pm

AudioQuest wrote:If you mean the ad banners, yes at this point in time, we can't afford to pay for ad banner removal for regular members. At some point we hope to have enough members who are active in the forum and would be willing to donate towards having the ads removed permanently.

In the meantime, we want to be a niche site for owners who prefer their CRX as stock as possible.

$4.95 a month to remove advertisements? Heck for that price you can get a basic hosting service and do whatever you want. :-)b
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby AudioQuest » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:02 pm

inthewoods wrote:
AudioQuest wrote:If you mean the ad banners, yes at this point in time, we can't afford to pay for ad banner removal for regular members. At some point we hope to have enough members who are active in the forum and would be willing to donate towards having the ads removed permanently.

In the meantime, we want to be a niche site for owners who prefer their CRX as stock as possible.

$4.95 a month to remove advertisements? Heck for that price you can get a basic hosting service and do whatever you want. :-)b


Problem is how do you move your site from one hosting company to another? It's currently hosted at freeforums.org.
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby inthewoods » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:11 pm

AudioQuest wrote:Problem is how do you move your site from one hosting company to another? It's currently hosted at freeforums.org.

Looks like they removed the export feature... They are forcing you to pay for "advanced" hosting at $8.95 a month. The bright side is the $8.95 is month by month so once the site is transferred you can them move your data to a different host.

and now... :focus:
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby red89si » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:29 pm

downest wrote:I must say I am not too surprised to hear more griping from another older member. I think a lot of us who have been around for a while are starting to get a little fed up with the newer wave of CRX/Honda owners. I see it a lot at work, the newer generation of Honda kids are a lot different than we all were five to ten years ago (or longer, for some). You can't do anything about it, change happens, and you have to move with it. You don't have to spoon feed the new guys answers, you don't have to like hellaflushyo wheels, you don't even have to talk to them. The scene is changing, still, and as the cars get older I personally feel that it will change for the better. These cars are getting harder for inexperienced people to own, and they are starting to cost more as well.


As baker stated, this sums up much of my position as well. One thing regarding the hipster/herrafrush nonsense, is that you dont see any negative commentary towards them on sites like stance nation or stance works, and you dont see the old school enthusiasts going to their sites declaring them "haters" or trying to push their style on them. Yet theyll gladly jump on any board not centered around their trend and do just that.

I have found this forum to be one of the better boards for hondas, and itd be nice to keep it that way, instead of let it get overrun by the barbarian horde of nutswingers that HT, club sivic, and team integra have. I have to deal with enough idiots in hondas on a local basis, and its refreshing to see a higher caliber of info on a forum than you expect. Granted, theres only so much that can be covered on a 20 year old car, but itd still be nice to get that vibe from here again.
"If ye love wealth over liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down, lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" SAMUEL ADAMS
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby Baker » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:23 am

red89si wrote: One thing regarding the hipster/herrafrush nonsense, is that you dont see any negative commentary towards them on sites like stance nation or stance works, and you dont see the old school enthusiasts going to their sites declaring them "haters" or trying to push their style on them. Yet theyll gladly jump on any board not centered around their trend and do just that.


Excellent point! When it comes to that type of stuff, it definitely is NOT a two way street.
Only those hipsters/trendsetters opinion matter because they're being "different" and anyone who disagrees are just a bunch of "h8ters".... :rolleyes1:
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby downest » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:31 am

There's no difference between them calling you haters and you calling them noobs, it's all the same. In fact you have just brought it up, unprovoked and unrelated to this thread. Learn to get along and treat everyone with a little bit of respect, earned or not.
Tom Wood (Downes)
'91 CRX Si B18C5 #591 hill climber
'88 3.4Runner daily driver/trail rig
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downest
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby daveb91 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:13 am

Kumbaya...........
91 CRX Si JRSC Turboedit ECU
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/560256
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Re: The WORST resource for Honda CRX related talk

Postby inthewoods » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:25 am

downest wrote:There's no difference between them calling you haters and you calling them noobs, it's all the same. In fact you have just brought it up, unprovoked and unrelated to this thread. Learn to get along and treat everyone with a little bit of respect, earned or not.

And respect the forum and follow the rules. :-)b
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